Episode 4: Promoting participation and co-creation

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Dymphna: It’s good to understand that there are certain points in a process that co-creation is valuable and that it’s good not to have too much and not too little. So there’s like a sweet point.  

Minna: This is European Connections, a podcast where we have meaningful conversations about European University alliances and how they deepen our collaboration. My name is Minna Kaihovirta. I’m Manager of Dialogue in Metropolia, University of Applied Sciences and a member of communication group within U!REKA, European University. Today, in this episode, I have with me Dymphna Snijders-Blok, U!REKA European University lead for Amsterdam University of Applied Sciences, located in the Netherlands. There are currently 65 university alliances in Europe. One of these European universities is U!REKA. In U!REKA, the total student body is approximately 123,000 students and a combined number of staff is about 11,000 employees. These numbers are huge and still, there is a drive to co-create. How is it possible? That’s the topic of today’s conversation with one visionary professional. Welcome Dymphna.  

Dymphna: Thank you so much, Minna. Great to be here.  

Minna: Good. Let’s start with practical examples of co-creation. If I think back, one of the most memorable sessions that we have had so far was a Lego Serious Play. This session took place in alliance’s annual event, U!REKA Connects, I think two years ago. As always, the participants represented all partner universities and had a very versatile background. You facilitated this session, Dymphna. Could you tell us a bit about the method, Legos?  

Dymphna: Yes. I also remember this moment really well because I think it was my favourite moment of those days and I was looking forward to it already for a long time. And actually, talking about co-creation, Lego, I think it’s a really good example of how you can co-create and also activate and make fun together. This method is called Lego Serious Play. I don’t know if you’ve heard about it, and it’s being used in many different varieties. Actually, I use it, but also some colleagues of mine use it quite a lot with students as well. I think it’s a really great learning method, but also a really great co-creation method. The idea is that you use a pile of Lego, and with this method, you just come up with a question, a central question, and together with small groups or even individually, you use the Lego to create an answer to this question. And especially when you do this together, it’s a great method of not only talking about something, but actually doing something and then talking about it again and doing something. So in a really fast way, you are creating something which represents your thoughts. And also, sometimes it surprises yourself because you make something and you’re like, oh, that looks nice. Oh, that could be this or this, right. I think it’s a great way, in a playful, fun, but also really effective way, to create something together which represents, of course, an idea or a feeling or a plan. So it could represent anything depending the question you use together.  

Minna: You mentioned here that you have a pile of Legos at home, but I seem to recall that there was quite a strong link between Legos and U!REKA, as some of the figures were actually dressed in U!REKA-themed clothes. How did you come up with that idea and how did it happen?  

Dymphna: So well, I must admit, I’m quite a Lego fanatic, and then I have an uncle and he makes Lego sets, especially for companies or for organisations.  

Minna: Interesting.  

Dymphna: Yes. So he is a designer of Lego sets, let’s say. And that means he also has the machines for printing things on empty Lego shirts. 

Minna: Okay. Interesting.  

Dymphna: And I wanted to do something fun, so I asked him to print a bunch of U!REKA Lego figures, which he did. And I think to have some figures helps a lot in this co-creation because it’s always about people.  

Minna: So you really had put in some thought and preparation in that session. And from my own point of view, I think I have participated in hundreds of facilitated sessions in various roles, and this is one of those workshops that I still remember very clearly. So something special must have happened in it. Could you please reflect the outcome of that specific session with U!REKA people doing Lego Serious Play?  

Dymphna: Yes, I think there were some different elements that made it really special in that moment. The first day and the first morning it was. And I think in this sense, it’s sort of because you start playing altogether and it’s not so serious and you have to do it together with people you don’t know, because this was part of the introduction, right. Find a group of people you don’t know yet. So you just find three or four others. You are with a little group of four or maybe five people, and you have a task and it brings a little bit the playfulness that we all had as a child. It makes it all of a sudden really relaxing, not so serious, and you’re doing something right away. So it’s not about who talks loudest. And it’s an easy task. Everyone knows how to put a Lego stone on the other, right. So in a way, it’s not an overwhelming, completely difficult task. So I think those elements are all important. There’s a little bit of time pressure. So you don’t have a lot of time to talk about all other things. Just you start doing something together, and in that sense, you start to get to know each other in a fun way. You all add something to the construction. So you all feel you are actually participating. So I think those are all elements. Another important part of it is the reflection afterwards. So first, you have the building part, and then we ask everyone to put a paper with a name of the construction you made. And then you could walk around and see all the other constructions and talk to the other people about their constructions. So you don’t have to talk about maybe who are you, where do you work, but you talk about the piece that they created.  

Minna: And it also makes it sort of more informal and relaxed as everybody’s struggling to find the right pieces and to get the actual outcome to reflect whatever they have planned to involve in that. So everybody’s sort of in the same level when they are showing what they’ve done.  

Dymphna: Exactly. Yeah, that’s a good one. It’s like a level of where the rule is that it’s playful. So it’s not very strict in a way. So I think…  

Minna: Playfulness is embedded into the method.  

Dymphna: Exactly, yes. And then it also makes a lot of really nice pictures.  

Minna: That’s true.  

Dymphna: [laughter] A lot of people laughing, a lot of colours. So it has a lot of aspects that are fun. I can really recommend doing it also with students or in other sessions, just as a little warming up maybe. Or maybe after talking a lot, as a break or even at the end of a session to wrap up and give everyone some space to create the thing they take away from a session. So you can use it on many different occasions, even with the high level meetings. Also with really serious people you can do it because [laughs] then you make them a little bit less serious maybe, right. So a little bit more human.  

Minna: And that puts the focus on the interaction and creating something together.  

Dymphna: Exactly. 

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Minna: Well, let’s move on to other examples. Another example of an intercultural session that has stayed in my mind took also place in U!REKA’s annual Connects event one year ago. And again, we started with the mix of people in the room, and again, it was you who was facilitating the event. And in this session, we all were asked to recall our first summer job and come up with one thing that we had learned from it. After that, I think we were standing in a circle and sharing those stories, some of those touching, some of those funny. And for me, the biggest finding was that the learning outcomes were all somewhat similar, despite the country or culture where the actual learning had taken place. That was in a way a real eye opener for many of us. Could you reflect a bit about that method and your thoughts and ideas behind that?  

Dymphna: Yeah, it’s really nice you bring this up as well, because I took really the time up front to come up with a question that would give us the feeling of understanding each other and feeling bonded in a way. I remember thinking about it up front, like what could be something that is personal, so you get a little bit of a glimpse of who is the person, that it’s easy to recall for everyone, that everyone has a little story that is safe to share, something that we can all relate to, and it can say a lot about someone’s background, but also where you grow up. And then at the end, actually I was really amazed by the effect and also by the things that we all recognise with each other. So it really made a bridge between all of us in only 15 minutes, I think.  

Minna: Something like that. It was a quite brief time slot and still really impressive one. 

Dymphna: Yes. And what I also believe is really important, and it doesn’t really matter the exact question, but when you are with a group and you want to work together, so this is also a bridge to co-creation. If you want to work together, I think it’s very important to have all heard each other’s voices already and for every individual to already have said something. Because for some people, saying something in a group could be quite a big step, and for others, they might be always the one talking, right. You always know. Some people always talk, some people, they need some stimulation. So when you invest a little bit in the beginning of a session in having everyone talk, then at least that floor is open.  

Minna: Yes. I can relate to that. And in my role in my home university of applied sciences, I’m quite often a partner for our professionals who want to bring in co-creation or participatory approach. And one of the things that I’m always reminding is that start the session from the first moment to be interactive and bed in already into the warm up part something that lets people to be active and to say something and to sort of create a bond between the topic and themselves. Otherwise, no matter how great, let’s say a lecture or presentation you will have in the first part, if you are losing that moment where people are getting the connection to each other and to the topic, then it will be in most cases, in my experience, rather difficult to carry the process towards a good outcome.  

Dymphna: Yes. And it’s good that we’re talking about this because I also forget about this sometimes. It’s really easy when you have an hour and a half to just go straight to the topic and then dive into it. The little investment that you take, it pays out in a way.  

Minna: It’s an investment that is worth making. 

Dymphna: Worth it. And people do feel involved and they feel more seen, and I think this is also really important. How do you call it? When you talk about co-creation, people who are part of the process, they need to feel that they are being really heard and seen and that they are valued for being there as well. This little getting to know each other, hearing each other, having something personal really helps in that sense of belonging and sense of adding value to the creation process. 

Minna: I agree. I think these two were really good examples of concrete ways how to co-create in an event or as a session part of other programmes. 

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Minna: Now I think we could move on to sort of larger scale and discuss a bit why co-create. Co-creation is all about bringing people together and facilitating their interaction. And we have chosen co-creation as one of the three values in our alliance, U!REKA. So I think it’s a good moment to stop and discuss a bit why are we so passionate about this co-creation. I think you and myself, we both have been involved in many discussions and many workshops around this topic. And I’d like to ask why co-creation is important to you, Dymphna?  

Dymphna: There are many reasons why I think it’s important. First of all, I think it’s in a way part of our DNA as being a human being. I think when we grow up as a child, you are already in a social surrounding. Just being at home with your family or being in a school situation, you are already doing the things together with others. Everything is an interaction. Of course, there are rules and there are boundaries, but the moment you feel as a child as well, you feel part of this community and you feel that you have influence also on taking care of the community or taking care of within your classroom or within your house. You have some influence on the way you interact together. I think it’s already building blocks of co-creation. It’s the feeling of belonging and of being an important part of the community or at least to be part of a community.  

Minna: Now that you are putting it this way, it reminds me that when there’s a list of basic needs for any human being, so after we have gotten some food and shelter, the need to belong somewhere is actually coming quite close to those really, really basic needs. So it actually explains why it is so important for us also in the study setting or professional setting as well. 

Dymphna: Yes, it’s the basic need for any human being. Of course, that’s not everything, but I think that’s the basic behind it. And then in our professional lives, I think we become way more step-by-step and depending of your job of course, but we become part, especially in this big organisation working in educational institutions, we all have the experience that this is a really large organisation. You really need to find your place in the organisation. It’s a matter of it needs to fit your personality and it needs to fit the organisation. Everyone wants a little bit of influence. Although you can never influence everything, but you do need to have the feeling that you can influence certain things. I think that’s also very much related to the co-creation part. I think that we all realise that there’s a lot of things that are just a given. We have laws. We have a lot of things that we don’t know about or that you cannot do everything working in this large organisation, but within your own sphere of influence, you do want to have the feeling that you are part of something bigger and that you add value to this part. Adapting new things as a European University, I think if we make the link European University initiative, this is very much a long-term change. It’s not something overnight. Being part of this longer-term change in Europe, in our own universities, I think if you want people to feel the potential and also to have people involved and engage people in this longer-term idea, the only way you can do this is by co-creation. No one knows the end result yet, so we don’t have a complete outline. We have our KPIs and we have our goals and our ideas, what we want to complete together, but we don’t know exactly how to do it, we don’t know exactly what will work. We don’t know all the influences from outside. Maybe there’s a lot of things going to change. So the only way to do this together is by co-creating and making the changes together.  

Minna: I think it’s really well put, so it’s not a question of choice, it’s actually the only way that is possible now that we are ahead of this huge task of creating something new and making it throughout Europe, Europe-wide.  

Dymphna: Yes. 

Minna: But to be honest, I think both of us have many times heard the argument that wouldn’t it be just easier to make decisions in small groups and just inform the alliance of the rest of the organisation afterwards. So could you explain where the strong drive for co-creation comes from? Why do you keep advocating, like let’s not choose the easy path, let’s do it this way? I could maybe add something from my own point of view as well, because I feel like I’m a strong advocate for this as well.  

Dymphna: Yes, well, there’s two things. Because I’m not against the fact that sometimes a decision needs to be made by someone and it needs to be done. [utters a laugh] I do think co-creation in the basics is what we always need, but I also think that sometimes it’s impossible to have certain topics done in co-creation. However, and I can give an example, one of our challenges or one of our KPIs is that we have a mandatory course for all of our students on sustainability. And what I understand in Metropolia that the management decided this is going to happen, then the co-creation part is making the course together, coming up with the content, and then next study year, all year one students will get this course into their curriculum somewhere in year one. So that’s how I understood it.  

Minna: Yes. That’s the plan. 

Dymphna: Well, if I give this example in Amsterdam, my colleagues say, ha, that’s really nice, but over here, it would be impossible to do something like this, because there is no structure that anyone could say, this is going to happen and then it will happen. So in Amsterdam, the tendency is really everybody wants to have their say. So it’s a mentality kind of thing. It’s not always that co-creation in every decision is that everyone can co-create every decision. It’s sometimes a smaller group that can decide for the whole bigger group. So how do you see maybe this difference also in Metropolia? Or is it at all easy to have this kind of decision, and is there a lot of people against it then? Or how do you look at this? 

Minna: I think it’s a really, really interesting topic to think through. I think it has lots of connection to the culture and to the organisational culture. If I try to reflect, I totally agree with you that some decisions need to be made, let’s say, with the board of managers, management group will make some of the decisions, and then everybody will just agree, okay, this was decided there and now let’s start working accordingly. But then we’ve been sort of learning about bringing in these co-creational bits and parts in the processes. So let’s say some ten years ago maybe, the processes were much more straightforward. There was a decision made, then there was an implementation plan, and then at some point, the consequences reached each professional or each student. So it sort of went through one pipeline. And after that, we started adding co-creation in some points along the way. I think we’ve been going through a learning experience in a way that there might have been a honeymoon period when we wanted to include co-creation maybe even in too many places, and then we learned that maybe not every part of the process is really good for this kind of action. And actually, what I’ve introduced has been a plan to identify the correct moments for co-creation. So if you think about process, there will be moments when someone makes the final decision or when dates are set or when the budget or other resources are defined. But along the way, there also are good spots where people can be invited. So here’s a draft version, please, would you share your views on that. Or here are all the alternatives we’ve come up with. Let’s discuss which ones you prefer. So I think it’s a good tool when you use it wisely and not too much. Because it’s also kind of consuming for people. They invest their time, they bring in their thoughts, they get all enthusiastic, and then they have expectations. So what will happen with all the good ideas and all the thoughts and ideas that I shared. You need to follow up to those, otherwise you will end up with a bunch of really disappointed people.  

Dymphna: Yes, so that’s good to mention. It’s good to understand that there are certain points in a process that co-creation is valuable, and that it’s good not to have too much and not too little. So there’ like a sweet point. And I think, Minna, you also touched a really important spot there, that at one point people can also become tired of co-creation. I think everything comes in waves, right [utters a laugh]. We have to also make sure not to ask too much of everyone.  

Minna: Part of the solution within our institution has been creating a specific task force called Parru Team, for promoting a participatory approach, but also sort of guiding and helping people when they wish to bring in a participatory element of how to do it wisely and how much resources it might require. I think we have quite good experience with that, and I’ve been really pleased that I’ve been able to bring in that knowledge also to U!REKA, and to spread it in bits and pieces to European level as well. Because I think the next thing for us in U!REKA, now that we are also maybe in honeymoon phase with the co-creation, is to ensure that somehow the participatory approach and co-creation will stay at the core of U!REKA, but we won’t overdo it. Do you have any wise words on what should and could be done about this?  

Dymphna: I think it’s pretty well-embedded in the basics of our agreements. However, in practice of course, we also have a lot to do within our own institutions. We are working really on two different levels. We are working on the U!REKA level with all our institutions together, and there we need to make sure that we all have our added value and our sayings and our co-creation values together. But I think we have this quite well organised already in all the different meetings. Although sometimes we get tired of all those meetings, but I think it’s important to do talk with each other.  

Minna: I agree with you. In my opinion, we have succeeded in creating good structures to ensure this and embedding the co-creation in some of our events and structures, like our monthly meeting or the annual event. 

Dymphna: Yes, definitely. Then on the other hand, we all have a lot of work to do within our institutions, and that’s maybe a little bit different for each institution, what the level of co-creation can be there. I think it also depends on, like you say, the local and the institutional culture that you have, the amount of time people have, the amount of involvement. So I think we could definitely learn a lot from each other how we manage the internal co-creation processes. And that would be also really wise and interesting to learn from each other how we do this. Also, for example, in the Netherlands, we do meet sometimes with the other Dutch universities who are part of an alliance. So we also talk with them how they do the involvement and the engagement and the co-creation within their institutions. Because of course, they have a local culture that is a little bit more related maybe than the local cultures of different countries.  

Minna: And we do have something similar in Finland, and I guess in most countries, where there are universities who are part of alliances, they have similar structures. And I think this is somehow also what the commission wants us to do, to spread good practices and learn from each other, and in this way also to develop the actual everyday work within all institutions while we are working as an alliance. 

Dymphna: Yes. And that feels in a way, it’s not only co-creation within U!REKA, but it’s also co-creation within Europe. So if we see it from a political point of view, we also do need to understand people who think really differently and stay in contact. It’s a lot about conversation and a lot about listening and understanding each other.  

Minna: We are in the heart of communication. Dialogue is crucial if we want to make this happen.  

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Minna: What have you learned during the process? You’ve been working within U!REKA for a longer time now. What would be your key learnings? 

Dymphna: First of all, that it’s a lot of fun, although it’s also serious, because it’s a lot of work. It’s such a long-term movement that we’re working on. We have to make sure that on the way, we are having fun, that we feel connected. So I think one of my first learnings is it’s important that we are in a good understanding with each other and we invest in understanding our structures, the people that we are doing this altogether with. So it’s a people’s job.  

Minna: I agree. Alliance work is all about people, working with people and finding an understanding and connections in between people. Do you have any words of encouragement for fellow alliance professionals?  

Dymphna: Yes. If you’re overwhelmed with the amount of work and with all the things coming to your path, just think of the bigger steps you are working on. So it’s all little steps, and every conversation you have about it is a little step for this bigger idea. I think the bigger idea is really that we want to live in a peaceful society with our fellow people. 

Minna: Thank you, Dymphna, for joining me today, and thank you for listening. 

Dymphna: Thank you, Minna.  

Minna: This podcast is produced by Metropolia University of Applied Sciences as part of the U!REKA European University Alliance collaboration. 

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